Farmers furious with Labour

Phil Goff

Labour would emasculate farmers by forcing them into the Emissions Trading Scheme two years early and the economic impact would be catastrophic, Federated Farmers says.

Labour leader Phil Goff yesterday unveiled one of his party's main policies to turn the economy around -- an $800 million research and development boost for businesses through tax credits, with the cost met by farmers who will have to start paying for their greenhouse gas emissions in 2013.

The government's entry date for the sector is 2015, and farmers don't think they should be brought into the scheme at all.

"They talk about an export-led recovery, they talk about agriculture being part of that, and they want to emasculate us," Federated Farmers president Don Nicolson told NZPA.

"Agriculture is a major part of this economy...no farmer is prepared for anything that is nonsensical and the ETS, to most people, is nonsensical."

Mr Nicolson said Mr Goff was playing games with the sector, and he accused Labour of plotting to discredit farmers.

"The announcement is entirely linked with (Labour MP) Stuart Nash's tirade last week about farmers not paying enough tax and it's all designed to discredit farmers, who have had exemplary production statistics for as long as I can remember."

Mr Nicolson said he had been fighting governments for years over the ETS.

"There's one part of me that says `let it all happen, Mr Goff, and then pick up the pieces of the economy afterwards."

Prime Minister John Key said it was a crazy policy.

"Labour has learnt absolutely nothing in two-and-a-half years," he said.

"This is the same prescription that got us into trouble -- they're proposing to raise the cost of living and have the most expensive Emissions Trading Scheme in the world."

Mr Key said forcing farmers into the ETS would increase the price of milk, meat, butter and cheese.

"And this is coming from the very people who have been telling us for the last two years they think the price of these things is too expensive."

Mr Key said under Labour's plan, New Zealand's agricultural sector would be the only one in the world under an ETS.

"The impact of that will make our biggest export earner uncompetitive -- and make New Zealand consumers pay more."

But Labour insists the tax credit scheme will have huge benefits, leading to an extra $1.5 billion a year being spent on R&D and driving New Zealand into new markets for high-tech products.

And it says farmers should pay their fair share for their emissions, something else Mr Nicolson disputes.

"Farmers are paying their fair share right now through emission levies on fuel and energy just like every other New Zealander," he said.

Other important announcements at Labour's congress were:

* A Labour government would increase the minimum wage from its current $13 an hour to $15. Mr Goff says that wouldn't cost jobs, but Mr Key says Labour Department advice is that it would quickly put 6000 people on the dole.

* There would be a Minister for Children in a Labour cabinet. Deputy leader Annette King says the government has failed to make children a priority, as it promised it would. The minister would lead a department funded by money that now goes to the Families Commission, which would be scrapped.

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The Canadian Govt. has just dumped the ETS scheme.
When is NZ going to wake up or will we be last again.
We need Govt. that leads from the front & not the rear.

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You know i have some family that are dairy farmers, also ignorant like these bloggers, they complain about finding it hard with money etc….but quite easily buy the latest Subaru Legacy!

STOP COMPLAINNG!

PAID YOUR TAXS!

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As long as you have Labour and Greens, ETS will live.

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This has shown what ETS really is - a tax collection device by another name. Goff and team have clearly demonstrated that politicans will simply use ETS as a method to fund other expenditure - not to reduce carbon emissions.

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Goof and his CTU Masters are clueless, making promises to try and buy votes from the public. I hope NZ are smart enough to understand we need to protect the areas of the economy that generate wealth and reward those who achieve not just make us all "equal"

Otherwise, why try!?!?!

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you have no idea do you!

totally ignorant!

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ETS = Emission trading SCAM

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irrelevant arguement. Check the budget. Page 56. New Zealand is in for one heck of a shock come the latter part of the year. Post the election of course. ETS trebles in it's impact regardless of Labour or National. Likewise, the signing of "international agreements": offers "serious fiscal implications". Check it out.

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Wonder why Goff gets paid{$1000} a thousand Dollars a day.Is he overpaid or is it just for his thirty mumble years in Parliament doing nothing.

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Maybe if farmers weren't so selfish they wouldn't get hit like this.

Maybe dairy farmers and Fonterra could put a lid on prices for domestic milk? And may be dairy farmers could take responsibility for their waste instead of polluting our waterways

And maybe dairy farmers could appreciate that they get free natural resource that is not theirs as of right and nor is what they take from our rivers - many of which are now just trickles at river mouths as they have stole the resource further up country. No other business in NZ gets free raw materials to produce their goods.

I don't necessarily agree with ETS but I am sick of farmers attitude of take take take.

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Ah, but they also give give give. Don't you understand that? Do you not drink milk, eat cheese or use any dairy? Actually, it doesn't matter if YOU do or don't, there are thousands, actually millions of people who do. Thank you to all the farmers I say!

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Yeah I drink milk and eat eat cheese. In half the country I like all Kiwi's supply the lubrication that allows these greedy baarstards to grow the grass and produce the milk and cheese - at no cost.

I also ( like all taxpayers - farmers excluded as they pay bugger all tax ) fund their local unviable schools and school buses. My kids don't get free transport to their schools.

Tell me as farmers pay bugger all tax and companies like Fonterra pay bugger all tax how do farmers help all the people in the cities? Aren't we supporting you more than the other way around.

Time for farmers to pay their share like everyone else. We all hate paying tax but unfortunately that's life - get over it and start paying your way.

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Fonterra have put a lid on domestic milk prices - I guess it just suited you to forget that.

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Typical Labour – bereft of useful and original idea’s and the idea’s they do have are so wrong on so many levels – it’s got to help National get elected again.

So who said Goof/Labour weren’t doing the best possible for NZ? Ironic or Oxymoron?

Speaking of Labour’s “idea’s” … here’s another one…

a horse walks into a bar and the barman says.. “So… why the long face?”

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Labour wants everyone to pay their fair share - this lie is attheheart of the problem with labour. When they say fair they actually mean "those who work haredest and earn more should pay more so the lazy or stupid dont have too"....

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Regardless of what agreements the Govt got sucked into, the fact remains that the Canadians had the guts to dump the ETS while our so called leaders are more concerned about not being unpopular with certain groups & to hell with the voters.

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Farmers create 48% of all carbon emissions in NZ, on average Farmers pay less tax then a superannuitant couple, current incomes and profits for most Farmers are at an all time high and they're "paying their fair share "? Typical response from a selfish sector. Time to pay the piper boys!

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Farmers create more than 48% of the exports that fund city dwellers lifestyles. Kiwi Bloke - get a grip on life. You and your communist mates seem to think no one should make money in this economy.

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This is just spiteful twisting of the facts: yes, in 2009 based on IRD figures, the dairy farmers in question paid less than the average retired couple - because they earned less! Fast forward to 2011, excellent production season, record prices - dairy farmers taxes will be skyrocketing. No different to any other business or industry sector. As for the 48% of emissions - also true - but answer this: if we were to zero our emissions from farming - do you honestly believe it will have an impact on GLOBAL climate? If we believe in the ETS then we need the whole world working in sync - not have NZ leading the process and in doing so hamstringing our ability to get out of this mess we're in.

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Farmer's may have "earned" less, but if you normalize all the write-offs versus the lack of capital gains on the appreciation of their property, their net worth actually increased. Admittedly they will not get that benefit until they sell the farm, but then the NZ taxpayer that has supported them through infrastructure gets none of that upside. So where is the equity?

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It may not significantly reduce global warmimg but it would contirbute to the "Clean, Green Image" of New Zealand, farmers and Fronterra seem so eager to embrace when it suits them!

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Your first point over farmers & tax I believe is wrong. Your 2nd point re ETS you 100% correct.
The point of dispute is farmers & tax. They do not and as I recall have never paid their fair dues compared to others. As an employer and manufacturer (and yes exporter) I cannot 'equalise' my taxes from good years to bad as farmers can. There is a raft of tax benefits clever accountants can dance around that farmers exclusively can take advantage of that other self employed cant hence the continued popularity of the old ' Queen St farmer' tax syndicates.

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Goff said Key's budget "lacked vision". Was this in preparation for his ground breaking announcement that the farmers should pay fart tax?

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This is a good debate and the comments above are all good ones but lets not forget the breaking news that has just hit the whaleoil blog that someone in treasury has leaked docs that prove the ETS was a $21 billion tax raising scam (not fiscally neutral) and labour lied all the way on the matter.
Regrettably farmers in NZ are getting a slightly bad rap due to the offensive greed of Fonterra and the retail duopoly. Farmers have the very worst PR problem now as the country sees them as greedy grasping always with their hand out while not paying their dues. May or may not be true...but thats what the country thinks so unfortunate that those of us that know the ETS is a SCAM have to try and defend the cockies ..as hard as that may be.
The latest news re Canada is goint to rattle the greenies...but wait till Australia finally fidgets it into nothing. THe ETS is a scam..Labour lied, Labour is entirely irrelevant now...all the electorate needs to focus on is getting Shonkey the great populist wannabee Sir to do the right thing and dump the fiscal millstone.

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In response to Single Malt..... Oh dear.

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Farmers (meat and dairy specifically) don't believe in climate change. Some pollute rivers and waste water. At the same time, no doubt their products are promoted as coming from "clean grean NZ" hoping the overseas consumers do not know or not care of their real impact on the environment. National talking about everyone sharing the pain of the crisis while everyone of them enjoys a hefty weekly tax cut off their huge salaries, while the majority gets peanuts eaten away by GST hike. ETS might be the incentive to diversify away from a manure based economy. NZ consumer doesn't get any price benefits anyway.

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The National Party are just as bad as the Labour Party. ACT are the only party that rejects the shonky premise that AGW is manufactured from, and what a waste of time & money the ETS is. When will people wake up to how utterly useless the Nats really are, and after they spouted off in opposition about how bad an ETS was. They're no better than Labour - same weasels, different name. National = cross-dressing socialists.

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Over the years successions of various parties had not closed the gap between AUSTRALIA and NZ. Perhaps, NZ should be the 7th State of Austalia....

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Becoming part of the West Island is a bit drastic, we just need our politicians to do what's right for NZ instead of their political careers. After Labour MP's admitting the ETS was to raise $21 billion in tax on the Whaleoil website, I think someone should be held accountable for treason. And that includes those who perpetuate it such as Key & English.

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Brilliant Phil ! You have shown your complete grasp of the econimic situatution and such an inovative solution! Who'd have thought that establishing a Minister for Children with the exact budget as the outgoing Childrens Commission and fiddling with Carbon trading and R&D would be the answer to the worst ever economic situation this country has ever faced. Bit short on the detail as to how the other spending promises will be funded but I am sure Phil's got some other flashes of genious up his sleeve!
How embarresing is this for Labour!

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If they keep on taxing us , we poor farmers will end up with no cash in hand . Had plans to retire by 35 but now looks like I may have to work till 38.

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You are obviously not a farmer, they for one would never be so cocky, nor would they ever be able to retire under the age of 65 if they stay healthy. You try getting out on a real farm and calve cows at 2 in the morning on a wet stormy night!!!!!!

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The Left is about the collective, assumes earning a lot of money is intrinsically wrong and that 'the poor' are the centre of the universe.

A more balanced view of the world, which many ascribe to, is as follows:

1. My sex life is none of your business, so long as I participate properly. So don't tell me how to enjoy sex, please.
2. The money I earn is mine to spend or save as I choose, once I have paid my (outrageously over the top) dues to 'society'. So don't tell me what I ought to do with it.
3. The concept of being at the driving wheel of one's own life is critical to spiritual enlightenment, emotional freedom and self-directed motivation. So stop being back seat drivers and engage with me when I ask or, if you can see me about to make an enormous screw-up. Not if by making a minor screw-up I learn something for life which benefits me.
4. The concept of entitlement is as worrying as the concept of serfdom. You are entitled to freedom if you earn it. And stopping others earning it for coercive control is now anathema to millions.
5. If I want your help, I'll ask for it. So stop 'knowing what's best for me', foisting your 'help' on me unbidden etc etc.
6. If someone works 80 hours a week for 10 years to establish a thriving business, why the hell shouldn't they earn more than someone who chooses to work 35 hours a week? So long as being a good parent is compatible with working hard for 35 - 40 hours, which will allow a balanced life for the many for whom 80 hours a week would make them physically sick.

Ultimately, the collapse of the Left is the collapse of command and control.

That doesn't mean that a new doctrine can't emerge based on cooperation, evolutionary niches etc.

Because nature shows that, although some species. such as Socialists aka the handmaidens of Marxism, are genocidal murders, many are symbiotic.

The problem the Left had is that they haven't reinvented themselves in a fluid globalised world (they just want to hijack it through UN Agenda 21).

And the electoral flaccidity which comes from decades of unquestioned support is now upon them.

The Nats might need to worry about that some day.........because they benefit from just such unquestionaing support in different parts of the country.

But for now, it is the Left whose mantras have failed.

See you at the hustings fellow individuals.

Mine $incerely,

PP

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Dear PP,

i appreciate your sense of hard work. NZ needs more of that. Where you and I may differ however is when you say, "The money I earn is mine to spend or save as I choose, once I have paid my (outrageously over the top) dues to 'society'." How did you earn that money? Specifically how much of the country's infrastructure did you benefit from to make that money? Furthermore, how does the money you have in your pocket reflect to tthe total cost of what you have done to the land, water and air interms of polluting it? Are you a dairy farmer? Then how do you mitigate the runoff into the streams and rivers that cause the algal blooms that are poisoning the water?

As a business owner I am certainly not anti-business, but I am in favor of full life-cycle costing of what is produced so my kids don't have to live with the mess of short sighted business people today. We need a paradigm shift that makes businesses cover the full cost of their work and waste. Then the products that are produced and consumed would be in a real free market system, and not one subsidized by future generations.

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So ETS is just a tax - nothing to do with climate change. Now who will the additional cost be passed on to? Lets see?? Oh yes - the NZ consumer! Phil I say again you are pure genious!!

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The argument that Fonterra would just pass on the costs to consumers is fine. They sell most of their products overseas so it is overseas consumers who will pay most of this tax - assuming they can pass on costs.

In fact they are price takers from the international market and according to Fonterra the local price is set off international prices so any cost would have to be borne by farmers.

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Myth - Fonterra are not price takers in the international market - they are the major player. This extra tax will be passed on to the consumer - it is a notehr cost of doing business. The question that needs to be asked is why is that the price of petrol is based on the international cost of oil & refining, yet the price of petrol in Saudi is 20 cents per litre.

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Fonterra is the major player in international dairy trade, but international trade is the marginal market. Most dairy product is produced and consumed in the one market. The stuff that is traded in the international market is the "balance". so Fonterra sells a commodity product (milk powder) in the most marginal market - they do not dictate prices.

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Goof is doing a typical left wing approach, find an area in the business sector that is doing well, pronounce a new tax and sell it on the basis that it is only fair that the target sector pays out more tax, and then try to link the impost to a hand out on R&D.

Why would the farmers not pass on the added cost, they will, nothing more certain, meat prices up, dairy prices up, cost of living up. Same as all property developers pass on the additional Council Development levies.

Goof and Co are totally devoid of ideas. Next thing we will hear "take GST off essential food items" and the announcement that we are going to have a Minister of Essential Foods, his job will be to decide what food is essential.

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Absolutely gob-smacking stuff! Not content with fashioning a noose for himself, Goff has sent out word -- that he wants help in finding a rafter in which to sling the rope over.

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The farmers have been milking the public with exhorbitant prices and government subsidies and paying no tax for years. It is time they fronted up and paid their dues.

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If Nz had the same population of 60 million as does Britain, a similar sized country, one wonders what percentage of the total carbon emitted would be from agriculture.

Thinking cynically, climate warming only seems to be a problem in jurisdiction where it is, or is about to be taxed. Wonder why?

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Question for John Key -
Why are we in ETS at all?
We have seen no clear rational for NZ to embrace this new tax;for that's all it is!
We should be minimising taxes,not increasing them,particularly in this time of economic hardship
liberte

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In response to: Heritage | Monday, May 23, 2011 - 10:08am
______________

I created wealth using my mind, my skill and the voluntary contract of those that worked with me to produce. I brought my wealth to NZ when I returned here and seek to do the same. I do not coerce I create.

Wiser people than I know that Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice-and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man-by choice; he has to hold his life as a value-by choice: he has to learn to sustain it-by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues-by choice.

A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality. There is a morality of reason, a morality proper to man, and Man’s Life is its standard of value.

All that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; all that which destroys it is the evil.

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PP, Too right mate.

Such is the secret core of the LieBore creed, the other half of their double standard: it is immoral to live by your own effort, but moral to live by the effort of others-it is immoral to consume your own product, but moral to consume the products of others-it is immoral to earn, but moral to mooch-it is the parasites who are the moral justification for the existence of the producers, but the existence of the parasites is an end in itself-it is evil to profit by achievement, but good to profit by sacrifice-it is evil to create your own happiness, but good to enjoy it at the price of the blood of others.

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Goff you tricksy little Fabian...you fear the man who has a dollar less than you, that dollar is rightfully his, he makes you feel like a moral defrauder. You hate the man who has a dollar more than you, that dollar is rightfully yours, he makes you feel that you are morally defrauded. The man below is a source of your guilt, the man above is a source of your frustration. You do not know what to surrender or demand, when to give and when to grab, what pleasure in life is rightfully yours and what debt is still unpaid to others, you struggle to evade, as ‘theory,’ the knowledge that by the moral standard you’ve accepted you are guilty every moment of your life, there is no mouthful of food you swallow that is not needed by someone somewhere on earth...and you give up the problem in blind resentment, you conclude that moral perfection is not to be achieved or desired, that you will muddle through by snatching as snatch can and by avoiding the eyes of the young, of those who look at you as if self-esteem were possible and they expected you to have it. Guilt is all that you retain within your soul and so does every other man, as he goes past, avoiding your eyes. Do you wonder why your morality has not achieved brotherhood on earth or the good will of man to man?

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Such is Goff's morality of sacrifice and such are the twin ideals it offers: to refashion the life of your body in the image of a human stockyard, and the life of your spirit in the image of a dump.

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As LieBore and their Union puppet masters feed on stolen wealth in body, so they feed on stolen concepts in mind, and proclaim that honesty consists of refusing to know that one is stealing. As they use effects while denying causes, so they use our concepts while denying the roots and the existence of the concepts they are using. As they seek, not to build, but to take over industrial plants, so they seek, not to think, but to take over human thinking.

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The problem of production, Goff tells you, has been solved and deserves no study or concern; the only problem left for your ‘reflexes’ to solve is now the problem of distribution. Who solved the problem of production? Humanity, they answer. What was the solution? The goods are here. How did they get here? Somehow. What caused it? Nothing has causes.

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Make no mistake about the character of LabUNionists. To undercut your consciousness has always been their only purpose throughout the ages-and power, the power to rule you by force, has always been their only lust.

It is a conspiracy of all those who seek, not to live, but to get away with living, those who seek to cut just one small corner of reality and are drawn, by feeling, to all the others who are busy cutting other corners-a conspiracy that UNites by links of evasion all those who pursue a zero as a value: the professor who, unable to think, takes pleasure in crippling the mind of his/her students, the businessman who, to protect his/her stagnation, takes pleasure in chaining the ability of competitors, the neurotic who, to defend his/her self-loathing, takes pleasure in breaking men of self-esteem, the incompetent who takes pleasure in defeating achievement, the mediocrity who takes pleasure in demolishing greatness, the eunuch who takes pleasure in the castration of all pleasure - and all their intellectual munition-makers, all those who preach that the immolation of virtue will transform vices into virtue.

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When LieBore, their 'intellectual-enablers' of academe and their Unionists masters clamour for public ownership of the means of production, they are clamouring for public ownership of the mind. I have taught my kids that the answer these Fabian scum deserve is: ‘Try and get it.’

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Good afternoon Phil,

A quick query from an 'individual' member of the New Zealand 'Public'.

You propose to establish a social order based on the following tenets:

- that you’re incompetent to run your own life, but competent to run the lives of others-that you’re unfit to exist in freedom, but fit to become an omnipotent ruler

That you’re unable to earn your living by the use of your own intelligence, but able to:

- judge politicians and to vote them into jobs of total power over arts you have never seen, over sciences you have never studied, over achievements of which you have no knowledge, over the gigantic industries where you, by your own definition of your capacity, would be unable successfully to fill the job of assistant greaser.

You are a scary sad little man.

F d'A

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You propose to establish a social order based on the following tenets: that you’re incompetent to run your own life, but competent to run the lives of others-that you’re unfit to exist in freedom, but fit to become an omnipotent ruler-that you’re unable to earn your living by the use of your own intelligence, but able to judge politicians and to vote them into jobs of total power over arts you have never seen, over sciences you have never studied, over achievements of which you have no knowledge, over the gigantic industries where you, by your own definition of your capacity, would be unable successfully to fill the job of assistant greaser.

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There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil. The man who is wrong still retains some respect for truth, if only by accepting the responsibility of choice. But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses justice by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who shoves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway. In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.

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In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability. The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the ‘competition’ between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of ‘exploitation’ for which you have damned the strong.

Eyeseeu

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I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

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I hear the Antartic is nice this time of year then?

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Why don't you city guys put a couple of sheep or cows on your little quarter acre and make use of the free water/sunshine/grass.

Labour takes all the money from the samll pool of successful NZ people and uses this money to bribe the people who need a leg up to vote for them. Quite sad really that so many people can't make it on their own...

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The collateral damage from Labour's policy to bring agriculture into the ETS earlier is the impact on Maori. With Treaty settlement land and resources, Maori entities are in major expansion mode in the agricultural sector particularly dairying This development is fundamental for the future of the Maori economy but extra costs would make success harder.

So much for Labour having any understanding of the needs of Maori!

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Haha. I just saw one of my more lefty friends whining on Facebook about his electricity bill. That's the price for trying to by stylish, it's just a shame people like that drag the rest of us into it as well.

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In response to Kiwi Bloke | Monday, May 23, 2011 - 12:59pm

I think LOTD means that independence is the recognition of the fact that yours is the responsibility of judgment and nothing can help you escape it i.e. that no substitute can do your thinking, as no pinch-hitter can live your life. Also that the vilest form of self-abasement and self-destruction is the subordination of your mind to the mind of another, the acceptance of an authority over your brain, the acceptance of his assertions as facts, his say-so as truth, his edicts as middle-man between your consciousness and your existence.

That said the Antarctic is gorgeous.

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another own goal Phil.... don't worry time for plenty more before November and that can only be good... less of your mates to return ... free loading from hard working kiwi's taxes with your ideas from the 70's -

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