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Key counterattacks over SIS boss letter — but tripped up by video

UPDATE: Prime Minister John Key's claim that he was out of the country at the time of a disputed SIS briefing have hit a roadblock.

The NZ Herald has unearthed a link to a video of Mr Key's August 8, 2013 press conference, when his answer to a question about SIS documents being released to Cameron Slater implies he was directly briefed by the spy agency's then boss, Dr Warren Tucker.

During the clip, Mr Key says:

"What happened is Warren Tucker didn't come to me, he went to his legal adviser and his legal advisers told him this is the process they have to follow and when he was going through that process it was at that point he told me he'd release it because he has to tell me that under the no-surprises doctrine."

Today, Mr Key told media that by "me" he meant Dr Tucker had briefed his office.


Aug 21: Prime Minister John Key has today reiterated that he was not personally informed about the release of SIS documents to Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater, telling media he was "having a whale of a time in Hawaii" at the time.

A 2011 letter from (then) SIS boss Warren Tucker that came to light this morning about the Prime Minister being "notified," "advised" and "informed" was a reference to his office, not him directly, Mr Key said.

"'The Prime Minister' means the Prime Minister's office," he said. "The assumption made by the service was if they inform my office they take it that I'm informed."

He was not concerned that his office did not in fact inform him about the OIA release of the documents, which regarded then Labour leader Phil Goff.

"My office could try and take me through every single OIA request, but I'd spend a lot of time dealing with that and not a lot of time running the country," Mr Key said.

Chief Ombudsman, Dame Beverley Wakem has backed the Prime Minister's story, telling NewstalkZB that Mr Key was not directly briefed by Dr Tucker. She also said the use of the term 'discussion" in a letter written on her behalf was "loosely used".

"I am very clear that the Director of Security communicated with the offices of the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition on this issue," Ms Wakem said.

Dr Tucker has also backed Mr Key's story, saying he communicated with the PM's office, not Mr Key directly.

Mr Key has also told media he was on holiday in Maui at the time, following his first official visit to the United States in July 2011. Asked if he could have been briefed by phone, Mr Key said people were welcome to check his records.

Questions remain over the unusual speed with which the documents (which were embarrassing to Mr Goff) were released under the Official Information Act to Mr Slater, and whether the Whaleoil blogger was nudged to make an OIA request for them (something he denies).

Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Cheryl Gwyn has opened an investigation into the release of the SIS documents to Mr Slater. Against this, former GCSB boss Bruce Ferguson has told media that in his time in the role he only briefed the PM directly, never staff.


Smoking gun letter emerges as IG opens Slater-SIS investigation

EARLIER: Labour's Phil Goff says a 2011 letter from (then) Security Intelligence Service director general Warren Tucker proves John Key is lying.

The letter, released by NewstalkZB reporter Felix Marwick, comes on the heels of news that  Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Cheryl Gwyn will investigate the release of SIS documents to Cameron Slater.

The Prime Minister has said he did not know the SIS released documents to Mr Slater following an Official Information Act request from the Whaleoil blogger.

The 2011 release of the documents embarrassed then Labour leader Mr Goff, as it contradicted his claim he was not briefed by the SIS on an Israeli spy controversy (Mr Goff says the briefing was confidential).

In his book Dirty Politics, which relies on stolen email between Cameron Slater and various National Party and government figures, author Mr Hager suggests there were several instances were the blogger was guided to make OIA requests for information that would embarrass the opposition. Mr Slater denies the claim.

On the SIS documents handed over under the OIA to Mr Slater in 2011, Mr Hager speculates the PM likely did know about the release, writing: "The head of the SIS would surely never have done anything so unusual, so public, and so political without their minister’s knowledge and approval.” 

Yesterday, Mr Key reiterated "I wasn't told."

On Breakfast, Mr Goff brandished a signed letter from Mr Tucker to a press gallery journalist Felix Marwick. Mr Tucker's November 2011 letter says, in part:

In relation to your request of 4 August , I can confirm that there was no written "correspondence with the Government and the Office of the Prime Minister regarding the SIS decision to release information to Mr Slater."

That section of the letter backs up Mr Key's claim of being out of the loop. However, the next section implies the (then) SIS head was in contact with the PM directly over the matter in some means other than written communication. It says:

I notified the Prime Minister (in accordance with my usual practice to keep the minister informed on a no surprises basis) that I was going to release redacted documents in response to the request from Mr Slater.

I advised the Prime Minister that I had received legal advice that there were no grounds to withhold the information given the public disclosures already made about the existence and some of the content of the briefing.

I informed the Prime Minister that I had informed Mr Goff of my decision to release the information

The letter leaves the PM a little wiggle room if you allow that "I advised the Prime Minister" could also be read as the broader "I advised the prime minister's office" rather than updating the PM personally.

Mr Goff also continued to press his concerns that the document was released to Mr Slater, but not to the Dominion Post, which also made an OIA request for the information (Selwyn Manning, then a journalist for Scoop, did get his request fulfilled, though was baffled by the speed).

The Labour front-bencher also continued to question why the documents were released within 24 hours of Mr Slater's request. Journalists are accustomed to waiting weeks for information sought under the Act.

Mr Goff said Mr Tucker informed him during a phone call that the documents would be released the same day.

The former Labour leader says he told the SIS boss during the conversation "That is utterly unprecedented. That is collusion with the political agenda of the National government."

IG investigates
Yesterday, following a call from the Greens,  Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Cheryl Gwyn said she will investigate the release of SIS documents to Mr Slater.

The inquiry will consider:

The inquiry will consider whether:

  • the SIS acted properly and within the law (including its statutory obligation of political neutrality) when it considered and responded to an OIA request from Slater in 2011
  • the documents released to Slater were properly declassified; and
  • other requests for similar information were treated in the same way.

Mr Goff says it needs to answer the questions:

  • whether Slater was tipped off by National to specifically request a document
  • why Warren Tucker released them so quickly
  • why Slater was given preference over other media

He has also called for the inquiry to be wrapped up ahead of the election.

A Roy Morgan poll released yesterday showed National up 2 points to 48%.

However, the survey, which finished August 17, only captured partial reaction to Dirty Politics

Since that date, posts of new information by "Whaledump" (a person claiming to be the hacker who supplied Mr Hager with emails and documents stolen from Whaleoil), have put the government under new pressure — particularly Justice Minister Judith Collins, who is alleged to have supplied the name of an (alleged) whistle-blowing civil servant to Mr Slater. Mr Key said the move was unwise, and that Ms Collins was "on her last chance."

Comments and questions

the sad thing here is to combat the popularity that the Prime Minister has held for so many years the opposition parties have resorted to mud slinging, which contradicts what David Cunliffe said that he and his party would not do during the current election campaign.

Rather than make election promises Labour would be better to attack the governments policy to date. The public want to see some leadership from the opposition not name calling

How can you defend a lie with such a pathetic response?

Being "the Doctor" you must be 2000 years old and a time traveller...I would have thought therefore you were educated and knowledgeable enough not to have a crack at someone else's opinion but instead continue to debate the issue.

And since there is no doubt you are old and wise (not necessarily the type whom wears a sheet and sits on top of a mountain) so please may I ask you some you remember every single conversation you ever had on every single issue and or request 3-4 years ago? and do you also keep records of every conversation making notes and or recordings?

Yes, John Key is at least as honest as John Banks - possibly more so.

What all this showing is how thin the veneer is, and what an arrogant and unprincipled person lies beneath.
It is not mud slinging if it is true.....

Which means that if it is not true it is mudslinging and will there be an apology? No - ie. dirty politics...

There are certainly many "masters of euphemism" working on this issue.

"Exposing wrong doing" = "slinging mud"

"Colluding with hater bloggers to conduct vigilante campaigns entailing death threats to the children of civil servants" = "engaging with social media" or "having a social media strategy"

"Actually slinging mud by calling into question the integrity and expertise of everyone from every teacher in the country, to the law society, to Hager, to pretending Russel Norman has been smoking drugs, while producing adverts that rip off a US rap artist and attack the opposition broadly" = "discussing policy".

We'll need a whole new dictionary to translate by the time you "euphemisers" are done butchering the English language in your facile attempts to block honest discourse about important issues such as high level corruption and attempts to import dysfunctional, divisive and disruptive tactics straight out of the US Republican Party's play book.

I'm still waiting for Goff to name his informant.
If I was John Key, I would simply walk away and leave this sort of stuff to those who are consumed by it THEN we would all be in trouble

What are Key's spin doctors thinking? He needs to sack them all. The smartest thing he could have done on day 1 was tell the nation on TV that very night ' These are serious allegations, I will investigate them'. That would have taken all the heat out of things. Going into a Banks-like denial mode is simply a one way trip to destruction.

Regardless of who unearthed what, we have a situation where Keys, Collins and co are being proved to lie and use underhand methods to silence opponents. This is not seen as healthy by anyone regardless of party allegiance. Elections are all about trust. Everyone should be concerned.

Not a great look for John Key or National

This whole saga is looking worse by the minute and despite National's comments that no one is interested in what is occurring - they are interested and will be even more so now.

Their campaign might be over before it starts

You are doing exactly what Hager does...jumping to conclusions on selected facts. Shouldn't we wait for the findings of the inquiry?

You miss the all important point - the Left does not play dirty politics, see?

Oh bugger - forgot about Mike Williams being sent to Australia to try and dig dirt on JK!

You wish to compare someone looking up public records with expanding the spying powers of the state intelligence service while subverting those powers for one's own political ends?

You wish to compare a Minister of the Crown (the Minister of Justice no less) leaking confidential information to a well known hate blogger for the purposes of that blogger whipping up a vigilante campaign of cyber bulling (including death threats against the target's children) with looking up public records?

Note who won the election when Mike Williams went off to Australia to look up public records.

If you have any sense of human decency, you'll stop looking at this issue through a partisan haze and actually ask yourself how you would feel if the Minister for Justice took steps to instigate a cyber bullying campaign in which people said your children should be shot in the head if they won't pay for a bullet to kill you.

You either have a sense of human decency or you just don't tolerate that kind of thing.

Keep in mind that endorsing this behavior for National will force other parties to take it up simply to remain competitive. It's certainly been successful for them; it has given them an edge for 6 years now so if we as voters do not send a very clear message that we won't tolerate this kind of underhanded, feral and uncivil deviancy it will become the new norm just as Key pretends that it already is.

There is a fundamental principle at play here which everyone, especially the media and the Labour Party, has completely missed - the law.

If Slater, Collins or anyone is guilty, let them be pursued to the full extent of the law. That is only proper.

The law however also clearly states that hacking is stealing. Emails and correspondence between individuals are private. Repeat - Hacking is stealing and illegal. Why are the media, Labour party and Greens so gleeful about this unlawful act?

Does the end justify the means?

theres nothing here. all thats happened is we have just had our suspicions confirmed

Update : JK was on on holiday.

The mud racking has just left Labour & Green & the media with mud on their faces.

The Doctor gonna lend them your hanky?

Am I correct here that there seems to be no evidence that Key acted incorrectly on this issue and did not interfere in the process? The only concern seems to be whether he remembers being told verbally, under the no surprises policy introduced by Helen Clark, about the decision to release this information after the decision had already been made. If this is correct then apart from a possible memory lapse, which is understandable considering the number of briefings he must get, there doesn't seem to be much of an issue here. Or am I missing something?

It is a smokescreen to try and make the government look bad even though their performance during and after the GFC has been awesome. I know more needs to be done especially to get more people off dependant welfare and into employment.

Am I missing something - John Key has constant memory lapses and that is acceptable as the PM - and on such a controversial issue he in recent days denies any involvement without knowing the facts??

Hopefully it is a natural issue and not a medical one

Apart from a possible memory lapse, and we all have those, I still can't see the big issue here.


This whole incident arose because Phil Goff accused the SIS of not informing him on their understanding of the status of some Israeli backpackers. Phil Goff was wrong and now has half the press gallery and the Inspector General of the SIS trying to work out if there is any secret meaning to his error. Goff was always a time waster, never quite on the ball even when he was trusted with important matters (e.g. Minister of Justice during the Peter Ellis case) and now in semi retirement, still imagining that the country owes him more respect than he earned.

Poor old Phil Goff, he got caught lying to the nation and parliament so he has to try to point the finger of blame at someone making a request for information under the official information act. National should rub Goff's nose in the fact that he intentionally misled parliament and all New Zealanders in an attempt to score political points. National probably won't though as they prefer to stick with the things that matter like policies during election time, the impotent left have to mudrake as that's all they've got. I think Cunliffe is going to lead the Labour Party into their biggest ever loss.

Judith Collins is a fine example of a policy led thinker.
Or do I mean a dogmatic autocratic who relies on underhand tactics? So confused. Or am I.
Hope John really likes Hawaii

Is there something wrong with exposing Goff for the liar that he is? He misled parliament after all. I think you are confused.

Don't worry Tricyclist, you'll get over Labour losing the election eventually. Think positively - if Labour/Greens aren't taxing everyone to an early grave, you might be able to afford a Hawaiian vacation yourself.

I generally go to places where the people are much nicer.

Yes, well maybe Cuba might suit you better.

So if the PM isn't running the SIS, who is? And what checks and balances are there on that person's decision making?

Therein lies the problem with information gathering
Who checks on the people who check on the people

But who would check on the people who check on the people who check on the people?

... um ... the people? Checks and balances are all very well, but as we have seen over the last few weeks, months years ... there are plenty of things that Governments, agencies, armies, and loosely affiliated fellow-travellers of whatever colour choose to do which can't stand up to the light of transparent examination. A little more transparency on the part of the administrative apparatus, (more uniformity in rapid and more complete OIA request responses for instance), and a little more objective engagement from the people at large (rather than partisan mudslinging by all sides) might be a useful start. Hmmmm?

Reported elsewhere this morning that Tucker has said that when he said "PM" in this letter he meant "the PM's office". Nothing to see here!

You really think it is credible that his office received a briefing like that and didn't bother to tell him?
What did he think when it i
Hit the news, or did no one tell him?

'Brand Key' is buggered.


About time.

Prime Minister John Key's 'moral compass' came from Wall Street and is stuck on Wall Street.

No laws / regulations /ethics /morals - just unbridled free market casino capitalism at its most debauched.

Time for BIG clean up in the NZ House of Representatives, and some DECENT MPs, who preach and practice 'open, transparent and democratically accountable' government.

Penny Bright

Paid your rates yet? Or doesn't sponging off others affect your moral compass?

Speaking of stuck records... do you get tired of people asking if you've paid your fair share yet of Rates?

Or, are you happy to be a freeloading NIMBY?

Penny - are you serious?
Have you paid you rates bill yet?

Stop this - she is going to burst into tears.

Freeloaders are like that.

A good test supporters of any party or left or right should always do is ask themselves: how would they feel if it was (if I was a national supporter) labour who had these allegations against them? That way we would all at least try and be a bit more objective.

I can't speak for other people but if these allegations were against Labour or the Greens I can honestly say I would still be total underwhelmed. I am rapidly loosing respect for the mainstream news media over this whole thing. I have come to the conclusion that they see this as a chance to attack bloggers who they see as a threat to themselves.

If this was the other way around I would still feel it was a beat up. If National then started claiming to be pure and have little contact with bloggers or leaking to the media then they would lose my support.
A bit like Cunliffe should, apparently he rarely deals with bloggers even though the lawyer who hid his leadership funding happens to be a blogger and 3 bloggers from the Standard work in his office. That sort of hypocrisy is mind blowing.

What concerns me about this whole affair is that both sides and the press seem to condone hacking and the use of stolen data.

Would they share the same liberal thought process if the two sides had stolen guns and fired lead at each other?

This is factually incorrect.

The then SIS Director has confirmed to media that his 2011 letter was referring to having briefed the PM’s staff, and that he never had a conversation with the PM on it.

Could this 'scandal' possibly get any more boring? Stay tuned. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

If the poles don't show a decline for National then one could assume that the voters don't like the allegations however the thought of a Labour greens government is worse.

Look at the visitors to Dotcoms house earlier this year. The Greens, Hager, Hariwira etc etc. Then look at who is currently firing the bullets. One big conspiracy which is back firing as the general public want the politicians to deal with the things that currently make life hard for many New Zealanders. And historically I have voted Labour as I believed they cared more for their neighbour.

Nicky Hager barely even wrote the book. Slater, Key, Collins and the other subjects of the book wrote it.

Just because someone's suggested the emperor has no clothes (based on extensive references originating from the PM himself), that ain't mud slinging.

HAs anyone yet seen a copy of the same letter, produced from the office files of the PM's administrative staff. Until we see such a letter, how do we know that this purported letter that Goff has, is genuine; and not just another cynical joke by a TV journalist?

Hmmmm..... maybe the PM did know about afterall.

The John Banks mind blank strategy is starting to fall apart.

The smoking gun, look I was just wondering have any of you posting here supporting the mud slinging seen the Labour-Green-Mana-Internet policy on HOW TO GROW NZ INC. I have seen the policy on increasing taxes, the policy on giving more free education to everyone, the policy of giving every person on wages a pay rise (to new minimum wage) which will no doubt flow to all beneficiaries, giving more money to firms who conduct R&D, but I just can't find a single policy that is aimed at....
-reducing the cost of government
-reducing compliance costs for businesses that EMPLOY people
-reducing the red tape for exporters
-simplifying tax regimes so less $ is wasted on lawyers and accountants
-reducing the current incentives for solo beneficiaries to have more children in order to get a pay (benefit) rise.
-increasing tax on products that result in Health System dependency

Ooops, forgot that the Capital Gains tax will save the day and make housing affordable and will save NZ INC. Why doesn't someone in Labour-Greens ask what a rational person will do when they realize that their home is CGT free but their apartment is taxed, they will buy a much bigger higher value home and wait for the capital gain as prices are pushed up by demand. Look at AUS, this is what is happening there.

Come on the left, show us the policies, we know that all Politicians from all sides of the spectrum engage in tactics that are borderline. Can't wait to see KDCs private emails.

Its such a shame, if when asked you say you cannot remember 2 years ago, you are accused of convenient or selective memory so they try to answer what they remember at the same time try to be authoritive. Both Goff and Key fall into this.
Can we please forget all this noise an focus on policy.
i now change tv and radio channels when this noise is on. Speaking to friends they do the same.

Prediction - this is going to backfire big time on Labour and the media.

They are almost beside themselves with glee and self-righteousness but they are ignoring the most basic issue - All New Zealanders have the right to privacy and will not tolerate this illegal and blatant abuse of privacy. We have seen how the News of thew World collapsed in one whole heap over the hacking into phone calls etc. This is no different - worse as the precedent was set and the likes of Nick Hager choose to ignore it, and Labour & Greens are wallowing in the mud.

Like Pigs in mud, I believe is the term

In summary: Who has been running our Country - PM John Key - or his "Office" - or a menagerie of unpatriotic, borderline ring-ins?

We the voters are most definitely looking for an unequivocal answer, posthaste!

'Respect my vote'.

"unpatriotic, borderline ring-ins"

No Kiwi is more unpatriotic than a Marxist Aussie wanting to over-tax you, whilst enabling a 4 or 5 headed Taniwha to "lead" NZ INc

Thank you for your response.

As long as you respect your vote, you should go with your instinct and follow your heart.

Labour-Greens-Internet Mana have nobody in their ranks who has success in the business world nor, I suspect, would any of them understand a financial statement. And yet they seek the Treasury benches! Our current PM is a highly successful businessman and has a competent Treasury duo with Bill English. NZ's credit rating has also been upgraded: It is little wonder that the left have had to resort to a vile smear campaign in recent weeks. All they understand is spending and taxing more as readers of the NBR know.

Agreed. But we need to know who has effectively been running our country, given that so much appears to have slipped past John Key in recent times.

Key has the makings of a respected statesman but, on the home front, he needs to get his leadership act together and harden up.

It's very much about standards and values - or indeed it should be - and in this respect we continue to wait with bated breath for detail of the high-profile legal appeal vaunted by the unrepentant ex-Epsom MP John Banks.

Respect your vote.

So Goff can't remember an SIS briefing about Israelis in Chch from just a few weeks earlier, but all of a sudden it's highly important that Key remembers a note from the SIS saying one (of dozens) of OIAs has been released - from several years ago.

Even then, that totally misses the point that whether he was told or not has zero relevance. It doesn't mean he helped Slater with the OIA

... but it does help with the coordinated narrative and contrived faux outrage the political Left and complicit media are attempting to push. e.g. Collins naming a street in Christchurch - late last year - but it's only a huge issue just now? Not even the MSM are that slow...

It certainly highlights the MSM green-eyed envy by those "professionals" blessed with fewer capabilities, far fewer journalistic successes, ethics, morals and abilities and of course, far fewer peer-reviewed Awards at the NZ Media Awards.

However - it does help the most left learning in the media nail their colours to the mast as they froth at the mouth, spittle all over their keyboard, as they completely erode any "standards" of so called journalism they purport to up-hold.

...and as for Cunlife's blogger and secret trust spokesman... that hypocrisy is just too inconvenient for him to answer...

Amazing how Warren Tucker can recall the matter so completely and instantly (and it clears John!), whereas John Key seems to be having a lot of trouble recalling various things these days.

Amazing why you think this old event with little relevance to anything is even news! You are desperate!

Just maybe Key was trying to immediately answer a question whilst being door stopped, where as Tucker had the luxury of being able to refer back to notes/records of the time?

Maybe the PM of NZ whoever he or she is, has a lot more to do than the Director of the SIS. And why would the PM be concerned about anything to do with Slater or Goff? A minor matter on both accounts.

When the so called documents were realeased our man and PM was not even in the country.Smoking gun is now cancelled for TVNZ TV3 all the radio and newspaper outlets baying for John Key's blood.Maybe now we will get on with the election and policies.NZs have been sidetracked above and beyond their citizens rights after being brainwashed by a person with stolen personal emails,and a MSM who refuses to acknowledge that most of their news in the last few weeks is about stolen goods,and getting a pecuniary interest with printing in their daily newspapers,and onselling them.

Maybe one of these "well trained" MSM journalists can check to see if this is correct. The letter/note from SIS was written on July 26 2011. John Key was out of NZ from July 23 to July 31. If this is correct it totally understandable that the PM did not personally know of it. It isn't a matter of national security after all.

Is that the PM's department?

David Cunliffe in regards to the Donghua Liu letter advocating for his immigration request which emerged after he stated he had never met Liu or advocated for him "I have not lied about anything to do with Mr Liu". His excuse - his office handled the request even though the letter has his signature on the bottom of it.
So Cunliffe is allowed to 'not recall' events and use the fall back that the matter was handled by his office but John Key is not?
It is not an excuse that 'everyone does it therefore its ok' but please don't give us a sermon about how one side is squeaky clean and the other is corrupt and a pack of liars. We as voters are not naive, nor are we particular shocked at anything that has been revealed here. This is why politics is best left to the politicians.

I don't care about Labour's dirty politics,
Or about National's dirty politics.
Or about the Slater's work, or Lusk or Carrick,or Farrer.

I want to see that the Government can demonstrate the 'high ethical standards' they boasted about.
Right now, no matter which way I slice it- it lets off a really bad smell, and the more they respond the stronger the smell gets.

that the Nats will be returned with a thumping 'govern alone' majority.....anyone really doubt that?

You're having a larf....
Maybe JK will be governing alone in Hawaii...

A vote for Labour is a vote for Kim Dotcom.

That actually makes things a lot easier.

...AND the Greens with them demanding Senior roles also... AND they'll need Winston First also to get the numbers, which will be just so so harmonious with the Greens...

Then, they'll try and convince Us the 5 headed Taniwha from the Left is credible enough to lead New Zealand.

Yeah nah...

But two of the monsters heads (Greens and Internet Mana) each have two heads, so it's really a seven headed monster,.

And with Harre's strings being pulled by Dotcom, perhaps eight headed.

Then you add in the ABC and anti ABC factions within Labour and I have run out of fingers.

So how does all this type of claptrap put food on the table for genuine hard working NZs.A Government winning by default,such as a deranged five headed monster ,would make NZ the basket case of the South Pacific.

I think you mean winning a democratic poll. If anyone is deranged it is the Nats, in their belief they have the right to rule by the foulest means.

No common sense should prevail over stolen emails.Even one being printed about a persons mum dying from cancer.If you have time to reply have a look at the vilest blog site,run from Cunliffes office by three of his staff.The name "The Standard."

...and the greatest irony is they call themselves "The Voice of the Labour Movement" which ironically will not tolerate, or allow out of moderation / censorship any comment that is not 100% glowingly praise-worthy of Labour.

Just try and ask about Cunliffe's CV and how he invented Fonterra - as he has detailed in his 2012 version of his CV... and the "Voice" would smother your voice...

That's Labour's idea of democracy and free speech...

Yet - never a finer example of an internet sewer you could find.