OPINION: White folk are not to blame for the crimes and sickness of non-whites
"For a Race Relations Commissioner, de Bres sure makes some strange (!!) comments."
Featured commentRace Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres appears to regret white folk live longer and not enough are in jail.
A taxpayer-funded report called A Fair Go for All from the Human Rights Commission, of which Mr de Bres is part, says that despite Europeans making up 68% of the population, only 33% of those in prison are Europeans.
Which compares with 49% Maori and 11.3% Pacific Islanders – who make up only 15% and 7%, respectively, of the overall population.
Mr de Bres also supports the claim that because Europeans live longer than Maori and Pacific Islanders that is an example of “significant inequalities” between ethnic groups.
He says Maori, Pacific Islanders and ethnic communities are not getting what he calls a fair go in the justice, health and education systems.
Does Mr De Bres advocate the jailing of more white people to “balance” the high percentage of jailed Maori and Pacific Island criminals?
Does he want more Europeans to take up smoking, heavy drinking and eating rubbish food to enable the white death rate to catch up?
It certainly sounds like it.
If a significantly higher percentage of Maori and Pacific Islanders did not commit a significantly higher percentage of serious crime then a significantly higher percentage of them would not be in jail.
Maybe if Maori and Pacific Islanders thought about what they eat, drink and smoke, fewer of them would be so highly represented in appallingly bad health statistics.
And maybe if more of their young folk attended school and worked hard to get a good education they would – by virtue of their own efforts – escape the paternalistic mouthings of people like Mr de Bres and his fellow travellers.
Mr de Bres’s attempt to foist some notion of a “white man’s burden” on to the shoulders of healthy, law-abiding, working New Zealanders is avoiding the real issue.
People do not have to commit crime. They can say no.
They do not have to smoke, get drunk or eat rubbish. They can say no.
Mr de Bres would do well to remember that before he plays the blame game.
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Comments and questions78
Wow. You just lost a reader.
You would never say anything as un -PC as that , right?
Why? It would be helpful if you explained your objection.
Geez you on the rag or what.
Wow.You just won a reader.
I think he was implying that the writer has an obvious bias against attempting to lower Maori and Pacific Island incarceration rates on poor health results. So lets not pander to racist crap and disguise it under the banner of ooh that Race Conciliator hates white people.
I want Maori's and Pacific Islanders to achieve and with this a lot of the bad figures in health and incarceration will naturally improve as it is an economic issue primarily.
I
Why would you expect biologically diverse groups to have identical outcomes? You don't see that in sport or any other area of life.
precisely zero loss at all. silly PC fool
Why? de Bres liberal creationism suggests that if group outcomes are different it must be due to different treatment. Anyone who observes sport in New Zealand would realise this is nonsense. Groups are different - as you would expect given thousands of years of living in different environments and cultures. There is no rational reason to anticipate they will all magically have the same outcomes.
Professor Steve Hsu, who is heading the Beijing Genomics Institute study on cognitive genomics, explains that here.
This clustering is a natural consequence of geographical isolation, inheritance and natural selection operating over the last 50k years since humans left Africa....
We see that there can be dramatic group differences in phenotypes even if there is complete allele overlap between two groups - as long as the frequency or probability distributions are distinct. But it is these distributions that are measured by the metric we defined earlier. Two groups that form distinct clusters are likely to exhibit different frequency distributions over various genes, leading to group differences.
This leads us to two very distinct possibilities in human genetic variation:
Hypothesis 1: (the PC mantra) The only group differences that exist between the clusters (races) are innocuous and superficial, for example related to skin color, hair color, body type, etc.
Hypothesis 2: (the dangerous one) Group differences exist which might affect important (let us say, deep rather than superficial) and measurable characteristics, such as cognitive abilities, personality, athletic prowess, etc.
Note H1 is under constant revision, as new genetically driven group differences (e.g., particularly in disease resistance) are being discovered. According to the mantra of H1 these must all (by definition) be superficial differences....
Finally, it is important to note that group differences are statistical in nature and do not imply anything definitive about a particular individual. Rather than rely on the scientifically unsupported claim that we are all equal, it would be better to emphasize that we all have inalienable human rights regardless of our abilities or genetic makeup."
http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html
NBR have just gained a reader, what it is to hear the truth being spoken, Thompson get a life ,what he says is correct
Neither is right. Corrected for socio-economic status there's little difference between white and maori crime and health stats. De Bres and the Maori "woe is us" have to ignore this or they wdn't have a "Maoris are hard done by so give us more money" job. And Anderson has to ignore it, or he wouldn't be able to write silly articles like this one.
actually
Why should it be corrected for socio-economic status? If you choose not to pursue education and invest for the future you can expect the consequences - just as poor Asian immigrants make a different choice and have a different outcome.
Err, because not correcting for socio-economic status gives the erroneous impression that maoris are more likely to end up in prison than than whites.
But they are.
Are you the Christchurch spin doctor Chris Rennie and are you in the pay of any Maori outfit???
If socio-economic status is not included the results of any testing will be subject to omitted variable bias and any results will be spurious. If in fact it is socio-economic variables driving the imprisonment figures then race is only appearing relevant due to the correlation between it and the socio-economic statistics.
Nobody with at least half a brain thinks Maori go to jail just because they are Maori. They think they go to jail because of what they have done.
There is no omitted variable in sight.
Oh wait. I just showed de Bries has less than half a brain.
Denial.It has everything to do with socio economic status and you know it.
Look up some research on bio-social criminology. Particularly group differences in testosterone & MAO-A variants.
Perhaps you might also suggest taking away the right to vote from all those minorities.
It may well prove useless to them anyway, certainly when the product of a modern society is a reporter from a major publication getting so much applause for completely misrepresenting the issue at hand, not to mention further inciting division from the parochial parish.
Stats show ethnic minorities hardley ever vote.White self righteous liberals certainly do.
Yeah but its only one. I doubt that the people Joris de Bres are championing have a subscription to the NBR.
Oh, that's OK then. I was a bit worried there for a minute.
does his report really sound like he wants to " advocate the jailing of more white people to “balance” the high percentage of jailed Maori and Pacific Island criminals?"
I thought it sounded like he wanted to raise those Maori and Pacific Island groups up to the better levels enjoyed by white people on average.
How he wants to raise those Maori and Pacific Islanders? By giving them more money to spend on booze and cigarettes? To try to force them to get an education when they don't want to be educated? They are spoiled by our welfare system and don't see any need to work and excel in life.
why should we try and raise them, they cant do it themselves, so send em home mate
What, send the Maori home?
Yep, to the West Coast.
yep back to stewart island
They used to own that too. Sorry, figment of their imagination. A Navy coming over with big guns, followed by thousands of people for that cheap land was just a dream.
Like how the Maoris pushed the Moriori off their land.
Moriori the true indigenous people of New Zealand.(or did someone arrive befor them)
Yes the Chinese
Technically we do have an argument for sending Maori home.We are all immigrants here including Maori.There is DNA evidence suggesting they originate from Asia ,Taiwan making them Asian immigrants.Now if any immigrant group is failing to live up to our standards we may have a right to deport them back to where they came from.Just saying.
What New Zealand hospital was Mr de Bres born in ?? -- he sounds like a foreigner to me-- and who appointed him as the Race Relations Commissioner -- this is a position we dont need the more so as its tax payer funded.
Understand his term is up next month so is probably endeavouring to justify his existence for the last three year
Fully agree. The role should go to a Maori. They were most definitely born here.
so they say yeah right
Been to the Gold Coast or Western Australia lately?
Are there minorities being trod on there too? Those natives didn't get the vote until 1964 despite having been there for 2 million years.
2 million? Try 60,000- maybe 100,000 years . But your point is made.
A Maori with a job?
Trolling again with this article NBR?
Of course note! We are simply 'being told what we all think but are too afraid to say out loud'.
Joris has to be sacked - he is trying to justify apartheid in NZ with White People to be on the receiving end.
To late to sack him, I believe his term is up next month
The Stats don't lie. These prison stats and those of ethnicity percentages have been around for generations. The bigger question should be...
"What are the Maori / Iwi leaders doing to reverse this on-going trend?"
As a tax paying Pakeha, I don't get any "special" grants or treatment from any government departments - hell, us blokes don't even have a Ministry of Men's affairs - but Maori have received hundred's of millions in treaty settlement monies as reperation - so where are the Maori initiated programmes, led by their leaders, to stop Maori killing thier kids and being over-represented in prison stats?
Anyone else remember way back in the mid/late 70's some Maori chap with a beligerant chip on his shoulder proclaiming that Maori will actively try and fill all the Courts, all the Prisons, all the government departments with their people until the government gave in to their demands?
It seems some are still trying to over-fill some of these places. Someone should tell them to stop now - it's not working for them.
Why would you expect biologically diverse groups to have identical outcomes? You don't see that in sport or any other area of life.
In the case of imprisonment, look up variables like MAO-A gene variants and testosterone.
with a name like de bries, he couldnt get his own way in SA so came over he to inflict his views on kiwis
Good on him we need more South Africans here.
Hey don't blame South Africans for Joris. I believe he's Dutch
Given the number of full blooded maoris, taking into consideration the proportion of non maori blood flowing through them probably means that there is more non maori blood in prison than maori.
For a Race Relations Commissioner, de Bres sure makes some strange (!!) comments.
Of all the comments above, the only one that is anywhere near "on the button" is Mr Solidarity, particularly re treaty monies.
A blow struck against the Frankfurt School anti-Western cultural Marxists. Good work and about time.
One can be non-racist without hating whites you know.
One can indeed, then one would be an oxymoronic expert, not unlike yourself perhaps.
Let's face it: the guy's two sammies, 2 cup cakes, 3 sausage rolls, a slice of bacon-and-egg pie and a bottle of Sav short of a picnic hamper.
You are all wrong, a person goes to jail, he has "some" maori ancestry, he writes down he is maori. In fact he maybe only 1/8 maori and 7/8 european. So who has committed the crime, a maori or a european. The stats will say "maori". The stats are wrong, truth is, the individual committed the crime and colour had nothing to do with it.
WILL THE PC TURKEYS PLEASE STOP GIVING THESE LOSERS A COP OUT.
Alternatively that 1/8 has a significant power of persuasion.
Hard to take an opinion piece seriously when it's 100% speculation, 0% personal experience.
Unless Jock would like to follow up a few examples?
Perhaps about how he was sent to school regularly without breakfast or lunch, yet he managed to give his full attention to classroom exercises throughout the day. Or how he and his group of bros spontaneously decided to buck the trend and stay clear of crime, instead applying for labouring jobs to fill their summer break.
Point being that yes, this is how it should happen, but it probably wont. Going against the grain requires a heck of a lot more than 'saying no', when the alternative options aren't as abundant as this columnist seems to imply (again, feel free to elaborate, Jock).
Putting this aside, I'm still not clear on what Jock's actual solution is here (the one that results in the relevant people saying 'no' instead of 'yes' for a change).
I agree with him on one thing for sure: blame doesn't get us anywhere.
We are all in this country together. I blame the schooling system with lots of PC cr*p instead of teaching people about how to make the right decisions in their life. One subject they don't teach sadly. People end up in the wrong place because of their poor decisions often - financially, family, etc. I am a fan of personal responsibility - but we need to give people better decision making skills - lots of people of any colour don't get that from home.
Actually, John, unless you assume that someone is born a criminal, or born a loser, or a PC turkey for that matter (maybe some are), this discussion and the whole issue being debated here is completely irrelevant.
The same would be the case when after looking at the historical data showing largely disproportionate literacy, numeracy, anti-social & criminal rates within the Maori & Pacific Islander communities, the conclusion is that it not the society as a whole that has an issue, but one or two particular communities only.
I for one would gladly prefer to see my hard-earned taxes working towards a more equitable, fairer and more inclusive society as a whole, rather than paying lip service in public to equal opportunities while privately festering institutional division based on race.
Glad you said "one or two communities", RACE/COLOUR has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Responsible parenting/grand parenting has EVERYTHING to do with it.
TARGET them, and sort it out.
Why would you expect biologically diverse groups to have identical outcomes? You don't see that in sport or any other area of life.
In the case of imprisonment, look up variables like MAO-A gene variants and testosterone.
@ Jim Bradbury,
Groups do differ statistically due to biodiversity also. For example, East Asians tend to do well on psychometric tests. However, they are underrepresented in physical contact sports in NZ.
http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2011/05/forbidden-thoughts.html
If Mr de Bres is concerned about statistics he could reflect on the fact that there are 8755 people in prison in New Zealand. 93.65% are men, and 6.35% are women. Does he think that the judicial system is not giving men a fair go too, and that it somehow advantages women? Or would he accept the obvious fact that men offend more often than women?
Perfect analogy... does any body want to question that logic ?
There will be a lot higher percentage of Maori's in jail as better security technologies come to the fore front. Many crimes they have been getting away with will catch up with them because of cheap motion activated cameras and location pin pointing via the internet. These people have had the same opportunities, maybe more, than White, Indian and Asian New Zealander's but they lack ethics, compassion and honor. I for one applaud the police for locking up as many as possible. We are better off to build bigger prisons that are culturally sterile than listening to a tool like Joris de Bres. As for the PI's, deport them.
What absolute racist dross this opinion piece is.
I wonder what your diet is like, Jock?
Why do we need this office; he seems to have done more harm than good.
liberte
Does de Bres get a cut from TOW?Good article,shame your liberal,tree huggers, hint of a tint brigade cannot see the flax.
Is Joris on the same page as everyone else,or is he reading from fairystory that tells us that maori are indigenous to New Zealand,that they did not get a fair suck of the sav,so that is why they are in the predicament they are now?Please spare me that nonsense.Harden up Joris and smell the puha.
Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand they got here 3rd or 4th.
Saying Maoris did not get a fair suck of the sav is a useless argument.Why do Asians and other immigrants (who are just as disadvantaged as Maoris)settle in New Zealand well and not Maoris.Some of our immigrants have horrendous stories of ill treatment at their place of origin and what do they do when they get here (with no money,family,job or place to stay)-they get jobs,stay out of trouble,pay taxs and fit in.Why the hell can't Maoris do it?
This whole report is PC claptrap - lies, damned lies and statistics. It proves nothing and provides no sign posts for the future.
Maori are 15% of the population yet commit 50% of the crime. Polynesians are 7% of the population yet only commit 11% of the crime.
Why this disparity when Maori get more of the state's money?
If Joris wants equality of outcome above all, then realistically it might be easier to persuade Europeans (and Polynesians - and the disappointingly crime-resistant Asians) to commit more crime than to get Maori to commit less.
What about subsidising burglary and violence workshops for non-Maori, with tutors Paul Dally, William Bell and Taffy Hotene?
Joris de Bres appears to omit Asians from his analysis as their excellent outcomes may reveal structural discrimination against europeans!
At heart, de Bres is a liberal creationist, who believes groups are all identical. In fact they were separated for thousands of years and lived in diverse environments and cultures. This diverse evolutionary history is manifested in some groups dominating certain sports (eg. West Africans in the 100 metres, or polynesians excelling at contact sports which require explosive power & speed). There is equally no reason to anticipate that they will all have identical outcomes in other areas, so de Bres should back off with the allegations of "structural discrimination".
As Professor Steve Hsu, who is heading the Beijing Genomics Institute's work on cognitive genomics, writes:
"This clustering is a natural consequence of geographical isolation, inheritance and natural selection operating over the last 50k years since humans left Africa.
We see that there can be dramatic group differences in phenotypes even if there is complete allele overlap between two groups - as long as the frequency or probability distributions are distinct. But it is these distributions that are measured by the metric we defined earlier. Two groups that form distinct clusters are likely to exhibit different frequency distributions over various genes, leading to group differences. This leads us to two very distinct possibilities in human genetic variation:
Hypothesis 1: (the PC mantra) The only group differences that exist between the clusters (races) are innocuous and superficial, for example related to skin color, hair color, body type, etc.
Hypothesis 2: (the dangerous one) Group differences exist which might affect important (let us say, deep rather than superficial) and measurable characteristics, such as cognitive abilities, personality, athletic prowess, etc...
Finally, it is important to note that group differences are statistical in nature and do not imply anything definitive about a particular individual. Rather than rely on the scientifically unsupported claim that we are all equal, it would be better to emphasize that we all have inalienable human rights regardless of our abilities or genetic makeup.
http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html
I think cultural differences are much more important. It's not so much what is in your genes as it is what is in your head.
Sure, but the two are interlinked. For example, men tend to have far higher crime rates than women. This is in part due to factors like testosterone. There is a whole field of bio-social criminology that looks at this.
That said, those factors may increase risk or propensity for certain behaviors - environment and attitude/culture shape that.
Generalisations are only useful to highlight your bigotry. Since you are yourself not a Maori or Pacific Islander, how is it that you know that Maori and Pacific Islanders need to "[think] about what they eat, drink and smoke"? I fall into this category and I don't drink or smoke, yet eating healthily is always a struggle because food is so expensive. Due to decades of oppression and assimilative processes, these socio-cultural groupings have been coerced into their socio-economic position, which leaves them little room to choose between organic, healthy, and the less than nutritional options. Either way, this does not imply that these people do not THINK about their choices...perhaps you ought to think about the way you articulate yourself Jock, lest you cause more racial tension. You also ought to know that the justice system is geared towards discriminatory treatment, regarldess of its underlying principles decrying its virtue otherwise. The largest proportion of judges are white. People are unconsciously predisposed to favour the dominant grouping, its ideologies and values, and marginalise the subdominant. What this means is that it is more likely than not that where the same crime is committed by 1 white person and a Maori, the latter will receive a more severe sentence. This is particularly the case with incarceration. So it is no wonder why there is a disproportionate number of Maori and Pacific Islanders in prisons. It is not that they are committing more of the crimes - it is the sentencing that is the issue, more to the point the discrepancy in treatment across these racial groupings. Only an idiot could take the leap you did to suggest that Joris de bres insists we send white people to jail just to even up the numbers. However, there should be more consistency between whites and non-whites who receive diversion, community service and home detention as opposed to those who are denied such avenues in favour of incarceration. Try delving a little deeper than the surface of your ignorant and bigotted opinions to the causal links underpinning the current social imbalances in our country. Then you can write a more enlightened opinion.