Public doesn’t need to know when our soldiers will head to Iraq - NZDF Chief

The Chief of Defence Lieutenant General Tim Keating told TV One’s Q+A programme that the public doesn’t need to know when our soldiers will head to Iraq.

“Deployment dates – I think most people would understand the sensitivities around getting forces into a country like Iraq, and is that a matter for the public? I don't think so.”

Lieutenant General Tim Keating denied that there is any secrecy around the deployment of NZ troops to Iraq.

“I don't think there's secrecy around it. I think we've been quite open. Well, I've been quite open, and so has the government about what we're there for.”

Lieutenant General Keating says he will, “always err on the side of caution if I think it enhances the risk to those service people I'm deploying. Notwithstanding that, I'm determined, as is the Government, to be transparent about what we're doing there and the results we aim to achieve.”

Lieutenant General Keating also told Q+A that Gallipoli, “was a coming of age of the country.

It was the first major campaign for New Zealand in World War I, and as history records, it was a disaster, but it was also a triumph of spirit.”

When asked what Anzac Day means to him Lieutenant General Keating said it is “multi-dimensional”.

“..to remind New Zealand, if you like, that we still have many hundreds of New Zealanders serving in the name of good around the world today, so that's very important. But I think Anzac Day, we have to sort commemorate, I suppose. There's the commemoration element of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, given their lives in the name of the country, and as well as the other sort of suffering from families, you know, losing loved ones..”

RAW DATA: Q+A transcript: Q+A: Chief of Defence Force Lieutenant General Tim Keating

Watch the interview here

TIM On a personal level, there's a family history, a grandfather, in fact, two grandfathers who fought in World War I and parents who were in World War II. And I suppose I followed that family tradition through today. On a stewardship role, in my role as CDF, it's the role to commemorate all those service people who have served New Zealand in the past, but also to remind New Zealand, if you like, that we still have many hundreds of New Zealanders serving in the name of good around the world today, so that's very important. But I think Anzac Day, we have to sort commemorate, I suppose. There's the commemoration element of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, given their lives in the name of the country, and as well as the other sort of suffering from families, you know, losing loved ones, so, yeah, it's multidimensional for me.

MICHAEL Given that it was unsuccessful, it was such a huge loss of life, why is it so important to this country?

TIM Well, I think for the country, it was a coming of age of the country. It was the first major campaign for New Zealand in World War I, and as history records, it was a disaster, but it was also a triumph of spirit. It was a triumph to overcome incredible odds and, if you like, the withdrawal itself, with an irony, was a success. But New Zealand as a learning nation sort of took that and there were many long years of war, which were the campaigns in Palestine and Europe after that. It was a significant first step for this nation.

MICHAEL Do you think it's when we became a nation?

TIM Well, there's a lot of debate about that. Personally, personally, no. It shaped an important part of our character as a nation. I think as a nation we sort of stood up for the first time on the international stage against an evil of the times, so it certainly was a time we united as a nation. And one could have said up until that point that, you know, that districts are important and different parts of the country, but we united as a country. 10 percent of the population deployed overseas; everybody was affected. Everybody was part of the war effort, so it might have been the first time the nation thought of itself as a true nation.

MICHAEL You talk about just how many were involved. Later in the programme, we're talking to a historian about the New Zealand wars of the 1860s and the huge impact that they have. We have a fixation particularly on World War I campaigns. Are we too focused on Gallipoli and not the battles that preceded it?

TIM Oh, I think the battles that precede it and also followed it, and this is where I am reluctant to say this was the defining moment of our nation. It was one of those things, one of those chapters in our nation, and rightfully has a very special place for New Zealanders. But throughout this World War I commemoration period, in 2016 we're going to be looking at the Somme, the folly of the Somme, the huge tragedy, the grind of the Somme; 17 – Passchendaele is very important for us; 18 – the end of the war and the look towards, and unfortunately it was promised to be a bright future – world peace.

MICHAEL Would New Zealanders heed the call today and go off and fight and die in those same numbers as we saw in those battles that you've just mentioned?

TIM I'm not sure about same numbers, but what I'd like to say is those New Zealand service people who continue to serve today, and I have people are knocking down the doors to become part of the three services. My recruiting is very very high. There’s a long waiting list. Many young New Zealanders that I speak to who want to be part of the Defence Force want to be part of a New Zealand or a vocation part of New Zealand that makes the world— that makes New Zealand, the region, the world a better place. And there's a real sincerity – you get this from young 18 and 19-year-olds joining the service, "I want a job where I make a difference. I think the world needs us," and that's a strong sentiment I get, and many of them serve all around the world.

MICHAEL Why do you think it would not be in those same numbers? Have we become a risk-averse nation?

TIM I don't think there is a call for that at the moment. One would like to think that the days of mass mobilisation of a nation are past. One would like to think. One would like to be optimistic.

MICHAEL We saw that in Afghanistan with the likes of the US. They lost thousands of soldiers there, didn't they? We weren't charging out to the front line. Why is that these days?

TIM Well, I think we have been at front line service when it's appropriate. When there's a need to fight, New Zealanders would fight, but in many of our missions around the world, we enable humanitarian efforts, like we have still a large contingent in Vanuatu. We have enabled humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan, as well as where necessary been at the front edge of the fight in the early days with the early SAS deployments.

MICHAEL If we can look at the modern day Anzac relationship, what sort of training were the Kiwis who went to Australia ahead of the Iraq deployment? What sort of work were they doing? What sort of training were they doing over there?

TIM Very much related to the mission and the mission is to train Iraqis and train the Iraqi army, and the New Zealand Defence Force, we are very good trainers. We have a history of it throughout, you know, the build-up of the nations in South-east Asia – Singapore, Malaysia. New Zealand was very much an early partner with those growing nations and throughout the Pacific, we've trained the forces. We have enabled forces, not only in military skills but to be good militaries, and we add that sort of added value. We are a values-driven defence force as well, so not only are we imparting the sort of front-end military skills but when it's appropriate to use them. And in our business, you've got to be imparting that knowledge in the value of the values framework.

MICHAEL Was the training in Australia successful? Because I understand that when some of the Kiwis got there, they found the Australians weren't ready for combined training, and they were left feeling a bit sidelined. Was that the case?

TIM No, no, I don't think that's true at all. The two nations have come together in a great partnership. We worked alongside Australians, in fact, even before Anzac, through the Boer War, New Zealanders and Australians have served side-by-side. We bring different characteristics towards the team. Forwards and backs – I could get metaphoric here, but, no, we never judge each other. Well, we do. We do in a sense judge each other, but it drives us to be better. It's like, I suppose I'll continue the metaphor, the All Blacks and the Wallabies. You know, there are differences, but that fierce competition between the two drives a strong team, and we are a strong team going into this operation.

MICHAEL So did it work, that training, though? Was there—?

TIM That training was hugely successful, and we took the best characteristics of both the Australians and New Zealanders, and I think we're going to have a very successful application of that training team with the Iraqis.

MICHAEL In Iraq, once on the ground, I'm interested to know what role will New Zealand's female soldiers play? Will they be there doing the training with the Iraqi soldiers?

TIM I think there's going to be a mixed element to all the roles that people are undertaking up there. Obviously, there are cultural sensitivities, but we've dealt with those in Afghanistan. And sometimes it’s the experience and the exposure to the New Zealand way. When we were in Afghanistan, there was grave risk we thought early of exposing our women, our servicewomen, to the Afghani population in the way they do. But, look, that became a myth.

MICHAEL But will you have to keep those women back from those really pointy end roles?

TIM No, that's not the intent here at all. You know, again, we'll be culturally sensitive, as we were in Afghanistan, and will introduce all people in the team. But New Zealand – this is where I talk about we don't only teach military skills, but we teach the way that a homogenous society, a defence force like ours, which is truly representative of New Zealand gender-wise, ethnicity-wise, an egalitarian society, how it works.

MICHAEL Why do we seem to be getting so much of the news about the comings and goings of the New Zealand troops from the Australian government? Why is John Key saying that you've asked him to keep specific details a secret, out of the media?

TIM Well, I think one has to be very careful here. I'm not going to answer on behalf of the Australians. So the New Zealanders and the government work on my advice, so I give them advice around matters of military security, given the New Zealand context. The Australian CDF, my counterpart, Mark Binskin, will also do that on the Australian political side. And I've given advice to the Government of the appropriateness of the type of announcements we should be making around the New Zealand deployment. We are determined to be transparent about what we're doing up there, but I will not compromise and I don't expect the New Zealand public and certainly not the service people who I'm deemed to be the steward of their care, will not compromise their security. I will always err on the side of caution if I think it enhances the risk to those service people I'm deploying. Notwithstanding that, I'm determined, as is the Government, to be transparent about what we're doing there and the results we aim to achieve.

MICHAEL Have you been more conservative than your Australian counterpart?

TIM I think we have a different frame of looking at it, and, again, I don't think one is more conservative than the other, but I'm working in a New Zealand context here.

MICHAEL So when will New Zealand troops, the advance party, when will they leave for Iraq?

TIM What I'll do is I'll, along with the Government and give the Government advice, when it is appropriate to say that we have people on the ground and we're starting to fulfil our mission in Afghanistan–

MICHAEL Do you know when that will be now?

TIM I certainly do, although there's still some uncertainty about flights and dates and conditions, so we know the rough timeline, if you like, but it isn't determined down to the day and the hour. And whether that's information that should be released, I'll determine at the time, and I'll advise the Government, and the Government will– it's their decision to take that advice or otherwise.

MICHAEL Will it be hard to build a level of public support for this mission, given the secrecy around it?

TIM I don't think there's secrecy around it. I think we've been quite open. Well, I've been quite open, and so has the government about what we're there for. And as the Prime Minister has said, a nine-month review and he's committed to a two-year deployment. We've told the public what this mission is about, what we’re going to do with this mission. I can't see the secrecy. Deployment dates – I think most people would understand the sensitivities around getting forces into a country like Iraq, and is that a matter for the public? I don't think so. I think they need to know we're there and what we're doing there, and I think we're being quite open about that.